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    • turbofandude

      Proper Problem Reporting for the TFDi Design 717   07/09/2017

      Folks, As the user count is increasing, it is becoming more of a task for us to stay on top of problem reports. We are also receiving an increasing amount of incomplete reports that we are unable to follow up on (which frustrates everyone, us included). On that note, we are going to be enforcing a stricter formal problem reporting system. There are a few main points that need to be addressed. ALL problem reports must be submitted via the Bugs and Suggestions system. Open discussion on the forums is fine, but our team simply cannot respond to every single comment (especially when the majority of doing so is asking for information the Bugs and Suggestions system already asks for). Incomplete reports will be ignored. This means reports like "my FPS is bad" will not be given weight. This isn't because we don't care. It is because a report like that does absolutely nothing for anyone - we can't fix it based on that. Please include EVERYTHING you can possibly think of regarding the problem and take as many steps as you can to isolate it. Prepar3D v4, despite what you have heard, can still be unstable. Yes, it is definitely possible to fly flights without issues. But it is still relatively new, as are most of the addons available for it. Please refrain from attacking us or other developers because of this. We have already had one scenario where a 717 CTD was resolved by an update to Prepar3D itself. This is likely not the only time that will be the case. You are still free to report the crashes, as it may help whoever the developers of the faulting code are solve the issue. Duplicate reports will be deleted/merged. For the sake of sanity for us trying to prioritize and evaluate issues, if we discover multiple reports of the same thing, we may merge/delete the duplicates. We strongly encourage you to search and see if your problem has been reported before. Thank you all in advance. This may seem overbearing, but this is the only way we are going to be able to stay on top and continue heading in the direction we, and the community, want.
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cwdefouw

Displays going black during flight

Question

I have had this happen twice on the most recent version as of June 8, (1.0.9.0, I think). During the flight usually at around an hour in, the four leftmost displays suddenly go black, the two rightmost displays stay on with no issues. I can click the black displays and bring up the 2D windows, which display fine, which allows me to continue, but I don't think this should be happening, and I can't imagine it is a problem with my machine as two of the 6 displays do not exhibit the problem. After the first occurrence, I uninstalled the aircraft, downloaded a new copy of the TFDI Addon Manager Installer and reinstalled everything. Had the same problem on the next flight the next day. I did not have this problem before the last update. A screen capture is attached, system specs are below.

Thanks,

Chris DeFouw

System Specs:

Proc: I5 2570K

Graphics: Nvidia GTX970

RAM: 16GB

Conventional HDD

Prepar3d v3.3

 

 

717_DisplayFailure on 6_9_17.JPG

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19 hours ago, NWA1999 said:

So I read somewhere (can't find the link) that you can only have 27 add-ons in the Documents/P3DV4 Add-on directory enabled at a time. So I disabled a few so id only have 27 enabled via Options> Add-ons and it fixed my other planes, but not the 717. So TFDI I have to believe because of this its something with YOUR aircraft. 

Robbie  

We do not use the P3D documents directory for anything, so this would not apply to us.

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On 12/16/2017 at 12:15 PM, dcboyinva said:

Do you mind if I ask you which aircraft you have had this happen to?  I ask because not one of the other aircraft I have does this. Just want to compare notes. 

I love this plane but it's basically useless at this point for me. It's annoying to have to reset the flight right on approach, when connected to VATSIM, because of displays going away. 

 

Thanks. 

J

Let me see what I can find, I don't know if I have the images saved.

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Today I have performed a flight between LFML and LIRN.

In the (fortunately) last moments of my final approach, the four displays have gone off again. I managed to land a few seconds later.
This time the displays were not completely black but represented some blurry textures (see the pic below). Can you maybe recognize what they are? Might it be a clue to what is happening here? From what I saw in different posts people get various forms of the 4 disappearing displays, including other colour variations or even blue screens.

I am not an aircraft developer but I do have some beta testing experience and it looks to me like some kind of memory problem (memory leak?). It usually happens at around 1-2 hours from entering the cockpit. It looks like being triggered by something, like heavy clouds or complex scenery coming in sight (in this case it was the whole Naples area scenery around the plane). It happens in less than a second when passing some kind of (memory?) threshold. Interestingly the F/O's displays never go blank. Figure out why?

And it doesn't look to me like LM's problem, at least not mainly, as I have countless hours in other very complex addon aircraft (e.g. FSL A320 or PMDG NGX) and scenery and still I never had any memory issues. I also have a rather capable system, as you can see in my signature.

I am very disappointed and worried as I would love to love flying this piece of aviation software.
Can some developers comment on this issue, e.g. if anything is currently being tracked and worked on?
Otherwise I am sorry to say this will be an unusable plane for me, which would be a great pity.

Thank you in advance!

displaysoff.jpg

Edited by Rafal

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Rafal,

This issue is with Lockheed Martin, not with individual aircraft developers. For example, the PMDG 747-400 QOTSII also had this issue; there was a post about it on their forums. 

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Henry, as I am not using QoTSII in P3D, I am not aware of the mentioned post. Could you link me to it? I tried to find it for a while but to no avail.

Also, sorry for repeating myself but, if this is not TFDi's issue but LM's one, I still completely fail to understand why it never ever happened to me flying other complex aircraft for long hours in different scenarios, but is happening each time I try to fly the 717. Can you offer any logical answer to me? I would seriously be grateful for sheding some light on it.

However, from your reply I can conclude there may be no change in this aspect in TFDi.
So, not to extend this topic, I might switch into the ticket system to make it an individual matter.

Edited by Rafal

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On 12/18/2017 at 10:52 PM, RogueShadow said:

Rafal,

This issue is with Lockheed Martin, not with individual aircraft developers. For example, the PMDG 747-400 QOTSII also had this issue; there was a post about it on their forums. 

Can I also get a link to this also. I’d be interested to see what PMDG or others have to say. I do know black screens for them are activation issues and have not seen a post were they go out after an hour in flight. I’ve been fly the mess out of the 747 and never had the displays go black on me during flight. I haven’t seen any reference to this on the PMDG forum. 

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I do use the PMDG 747 QoTSII and the PMDG 777 in P3Dv4.1 and regularly complete 8+ hour long flights with no issues. Neither can I find any mention of this issue on with P3D or PMDG's forums.

Please share the link.

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I just read through all three pages of this topic and 3 separate Devs have stated that they read on other forums that others have seen this problem with other aircraft but myself and others have requested links or searched these forums to discover no other planes experiencing this problem. No such report on the Aerosoft, PMDG, FSLabs, or Q400 forums. Strange how the same 4 displays go out but not the two on the copilots sides. What's different between the pilot and copilots displays?  If it was a P3D issues than all the displays should go out. What is also know,  the 4 displays work when you click them (pop-out) mode. So again how is this a LM issues when it has been reported in P3D 3.4 and 4.0, 4.1 and this didn't happen to the earlier version of the 717.  

Edited by Dan Moore

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The left four going out is because they are all on one UV mapping/texture. A texture corruption issue could cause that entire ONE texture sheet to break, leaving the other texture. And, believe me or not, we have seen the terrain appearing on displays in other planes, we've seen water textures on the panel in the NGX. Also, keep in mind, ALL of these occurrences, including ours, are in Prepar3D V4 only, yet the process for creating a model did not change with P3D v4 (and therefore, there should be no additional changes/fixes needed).

I've primarily seen this happening to other products on random Facebook groups/posts - I had a screenshot of one of them somewhere, but can't seem to find it. We believe Prepar3D itself may fix this in an upcoming update - if not, it may be a similar issue and I'm misunderstanding.

I DO want this to be resolved, but not only has it not happened to me, we also have yet to find a reliable trigger for it. Trying to debug it like that is equatable to shooting a pellet gun into the Grand Canyon and trying to write your name with the shots.

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Well mine always seems to happen around the 1 hour mark, give or take 10 minutes. Also I have been staying inside the aircraft due to the CTD issue that is suppose to be resolved with the 4.2. One gent loaded a video showing this happen but I’m guessing even a teamviewer session is not going to show you what you need to know. To bad you can’t creat something in the plane like a black box in the COB version to record what is going on when this happens.

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1 hour ago, turbofandude said:

The left four going out is because they are all on one UV mapping/texture. A texture corruption issue could cause that entire ONE texture sheet to break, leaving the other texture. And, believe me or not, we have seen the terrain appearing on displays in other planes, we've seen water textures on the panel in the NGX. Also, keep in mind, ALL of these occurrences, including ours, are in Prepar3D V4 only, yet the process for creating a model did not change with P3D v4 (and therefore, there should be no additional changes/fixes needed).

I've primarily seen this happening to other products on random Facebook groups/posts - I had a screenshot of one of them somewhere, but can't seem to find it. We believe Prepar3D itself may fix this in an upcoming update - if not, it may be a similar issue and I'm misunderstanding.

I DO want this to be resolved, but not only has it not happened to me, we also have yet to find a reliable trigger for it. Trying to debug it like that is equatable to shooting a pellet gun into the Grand Canyon and trying to write your name with the shots.

I would just like to clarify that this problem does NOT just occur on P3Dv4. I first had it happen on P3Dv3.4. I am now on P3Dv4.1 on a completely new machine, and still have the problem, and it is pretty readily duplicatable. I work in IT support myself so I do understand that troubleshooting something like this is difficult, especially if you cannot duplicate it on your own machine. However, the number of people reporting the problem would, to me anyway, justify a more visible approach to finding a solution. There are several users, myself included, that have indicated willingness to assist the developers in troubleshooting. I don’t know if this avenue has been taken, however, it is clear that a solution is not near as all we are hearing from the developers is that they don’t know exactly what is causing the problem, and they don’t even think their software is at fault. All of the users, myself included, that are also flying other complex aircraft from other developers, racking up hundreds, if not thousands of hours in those aircraft and have never seen anything like this occur in any aircraft other than the TFDI 717 must simply be wrong. For me the aircraft is parked and won’t be flown again until this is resolved. I think it is also fair that TFDI will not see me purchasing other products until the.previously purchased product functions as advertised. My offer to assist is still open.

Regards,

Chris DeFouw

 

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2 hours ago, cwdefouw said:

I would just like to clarify that this problem does NOT just occur on P3Dv4. I first had it happen on P3Dv3.4. I am now on P3Dv4.1 on a completely new machine, and still have the problem, and it is pretty readily duplicatable. I work in IT support myself so I do understand that troubleshooting something like this is difficult, especially if you cannot duplicate it on your own machine. However, the number of people reporting the problem would, to me anyway, justify a more visible approach to finding a solution. There are several users, myself included, that have indicated willingness to assist the developers in troubleshooting. I don’t know if this avenue has been taken, however, it is clear that a solution is not near as all we are hearing from the developers is that they don’t know exactly what is causing the problem, and they don’t even think their software is at fault. All of the users, myself included, that are also flying other complex aircraft from other developers, racking up hundreds, if not thousands of hours in those aircraft and have never seen anything like this occur in any aircraft other than the TFDI 717 must simply be wrong. For me the aircraft is parked and won’t be flown again until this is resolved. I think it is also fair that TFDI will not see me purchasing other products until the.previously purchased product functions as advertised. My offer to assist is still open.

Regards,

Chris DeFouw

 

Thanks for the input Chris. Others have also said they experienced this in P3Dv3.4, 4.0 and now 4.1. I even stated that I did a new computer build from P3Dv3.4 (Win 7) to new computer (Win 10) P3Dv4.0 and 4.1 and I was still having the display problems. When the 717 first came out and even early COB builds did not have this problem. I would investigate when the reports first stated comping in and see what changes they made to the 717 from then to now. Even the first post in this topic was reported by a user on version 3.3. 

Edited by Dan Moore

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Collin,

The approach you present makes me feel uncomfortable, and I guess I am not the only one here to feel so.

I am a longtime regular user of many FS forums, including AVSIM and FSLabs and thorougly monitor what is going on there.
Never have I seen any reference to this exact problem in any aircraft addon I know of. I spent a lof of time in the last days trying to find something.
In relation to it, this (forgive me) looks not very serious:

3 hours ago, turbofandude said:

I've primarily seen this happening to other products on random Facebook groups/posts - I had a screenshot of one of them somewhere, but can't seem to find it.

I am not a software developer and my knowledge about coding is nowhere near yours, but I have a mind I trust and many years of experience in using (all) MFS platforms in the history. As a beta tester I've seen various problems appearing, being dealt with and solved. Many of them were memory leaks - I personally discovered one in Aerosoft airbus some time ago. In the beginning nobody knew what it was (was it the sim itself?) and not all users were affected, but in the end it turned out to be connected with the product's custom view system. On another occassion, together with Kosta of FSLabs, we have traced a memory problem which for a long time affected some users and showed up in the course of the flight. It turned out to be connected to some options selected in the F/O's MCDU. Figure out! And these are only some of the things that come to my head.

I am not saying the problem of displays timeout has nothing to do with P3Dv4 itself. If you say so, I have no reason not to believe you. But I wouldn't really like to repeat myself again as above Chris has covered it all up pretty well. So very shortly: I have this problem in EVERY FLIGHT and ONLY WITH THE 717. If you want me to believe that has nothing to do with your aircraft and comes only from the platform itself, my mind is going...

As of now I stop using the 717, as not being able to make one whole flight (and I've tried eight times, every time in different flight situation, spending good 24 hours on it) makes it unusable.

TFDi 717 is a lovely aircraft I so much wanted to love.
I do believe you can overcome this problem that, for many, is a stopover in using the addon. All the best!

Edited by Rafal

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I never had this problem until last week.  Now every time I load up my TFDI 717, i run into it.....and its killing me!  Like everyone else, it usually happens 30+ minutes into the flight; its specific ONLY to the tfdi 717; and its always the same 4 displays that blank out.  My rig is relatively new (I am running an Origin PC with an intel i7-8700 overclocked to 4.3 GHz, 32GB of ram and an NVIDIA 1080ti GPU) so I know its not a performance issue.  And with the exception of this forum, I cant find any information on the internet to help problem solve.  So I am looking to you guys for a fix.  I realize you cant replicate the issue on your end - so I am happy to invite you over to my home to experience it first hand - and I am happy to pay for the flight to come visit.  Just let me know when!

You guys need to get this sorted!  I love your 717 but its not flyable with this gremlin....and it would be such a shame to shelf the addon because you guys dont want to do the homework required to find a solution.  We NEED your help!!!!  Pleeeeeaaaassee help us!

 

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On 12/18/2017 at 11:52 PM, RogueShadow said:

Rafal,

This issue is with Lockheed Martin, not with individual aircraft developers. For example, the PMDG 747-400 QOTSII also had this issue; there was a post about it on their forums. 

The only issue relating to black screens on their forum dealt with an activation problem. Not quite the same issue......but good try deflecting. Time to get serious and start looking for an answer. 

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12 hours ago, 007 said:

The only issue relating to black screens on their forum dealt with an activation problem. Not quite the same issue......but good try deflecting. Time to get serious and start looking for an answer. 

Perhaps if you are so good at looking at AVSIM, you'd find that we have posted this: 

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/527620-interesting-statement-from-tfdi/?do=findComment&comment=3778169

Please read up before openly attacking. Have a nice day. 

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I am really disappointed by your response.   I was hoping you would invest the time and energy into looking for a solution - not trying to prove yourself right.  Not sure if you can see it clearly, but the people who posted on this thread are desperate to use your product - that's a compliment.  You should be proud of what you have accomplished.  But this nasty little bug is now preventing them from doing that - and they are turning to you for help.  Why not help them?  Instead you have decided to take a different approach - you have either blamed someone else, gone silent, or in my case...shamed me.  How about a little empathy for your customers?  We all spent our hard earned money on your product - which we cant use out of no fault of our own - doesn't that count for something?  Its really strange to me how little you care.  The overall consensus on this thread is to bench the product until there is a fix.  If that never happens, your product will never be used again.  Thats not a good thing for someone who relies on sales as their business model - what do you think the chances are that any of us buy another TFDI product after this experience? 

Look.....we just want to use what we paid for.  If in fact that's not possible, tell us - admit you cant fix it - but make the situation right.  Customer service is an important part of the sales process - the people on this thread dont seem to happy with their experience thus far.  Why not take the high road - instead of shaming me, tell me that I matter.  Make me whole!  The customer is always right.  Make me feel that way. 

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On 1/15/2018 at 8:22 AM, 007 said:

I am really disappointed by your response.   I was hoping you would invest the time and energy into looking for a solution - not trying to prove yourself right.  Not sure if you can see it clearly, but the people who posted on this thread are desperate to use your product - that's a compliment.  You should be proud of what you have accomplished.  But this nasty little bug is now preventing them from doing that - and they are turning to you for help.  Why not help them?  Instead you have decided to take a different approach - you have either blamed someone else, gone silent, or in my case...shamed me.  How about a little empathy for your customers?  We all spent our hard earned money on your product - which we cant use out of no fault of our own - doesn't that count for something?  Its really strange to me how little you care.  The overall consensus on this thread is to bench the product until there is a fix.  If that never happens, your product will never be used again.  Thats not a good thing for someone who relies on sales as their business model - what do you think the chances are that any of us buy another TFDI product after this experience? 

Look.....we just want to use what we paid for.  If in fact that's not possible, tell us - admit you cant fix it - but make the situation right.  Customer service is an important part of the sales process - the people on this thread dont seem to happy with their experience thus far.  Why not take the high road - instead of shaming me, tell me that I matter.  Make me whole!  The customer is always right.  Make me feel that way. 

It's not shame - we're asking for the same chance we give everyone else. If you read through the forums, you'll see that it's been reported before, we've started looking into it, and have NEVER, not once, found a common factor/trigger for it. If you read through ANY other posts, you'll see we respond to issues personally and research them all. We have never hid behind blame deflection. That said, I have no interest in arguing with you. 

Believe me, I am aware of what ignoring a major issue will do to our reputation - that's why we're not ignoring it. I've tried two or three different ideas to try to step around it these last two weeks (keeping in mind I have to wait for it to be tested, as it never happens to me). They all failed to correct it. I am now waiting on input from Lockheed Martin to see if they have any idea. If it ISN'T our fault, I'd like confirmation. If it is, I'm hoping they can point us toward what the problem is.

If you look at technically, it makes no sense. Our displays, that work almost all the time, randomly begin to show terrain textures instead of the image our code is creating. I managed to be on a TeamViewer session with a customer when it happened once, and I attached a debugger (he was nice enough to install Visual Studio to help me test), and I verified all of the code. The functions were getting called like they should, our code was still creating the image of the displays as it was the rest of the flight. It's also the same code that drives the right displays (it's just a single variable that tells it uses source 1 or source 2 to draw). So, we know it's not the logic causing the terrain. As well, our code does not do any massive memory copying or manipulation of internal resources in the sim like that, so there is no way it would be over-reaching and grabbing terrain textures or similar. So, hence us being at a bit of a loss here.

I refuse to admit we can't fix it, because that'd be giving up. There is ALWAYS a way, I just do not know what it is yet. We are all human, and unfortunately, the machine is thinking faster than I am about this one. All I ask is that we all have patience with each other (and yes, it goes both ways, us to you as well). I understand it's frustrating, just know it's not just frustrating to you.

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What I don’t get is this bug has been reported for version 3.3, 3.4, 4.0 and 4.1. LM hasn’t made any changes to v3x in some time when this problem started happening. This problem did not happen in earlier releases of the 717. What hasn’t been answered is are you you waiting for a reply from LM on all versions that have been reported or just the latest, 4.1?

I know you’ll haven’t  given up on this but something is triggering it across all versions. Maybe a customer survey on hardware, software or tweaks may help solve the problem. This will be up to TFDI to figure which questions to ask. How about a few more TeamViewer sessions with users who are effected. This way more details can be collected. I remembers when FSDT came out with KMEM it was crashing a bunch of systems. Turns out an old BufferPool tweak was causing the problem. They did several TeamViewer session until they found out what was causing the problem. 

Edited by Dan Moore

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I can't believe this is a P3D problem. It doesn't happen with any other aircraft I own. Can someone link a post from LM's forum about it? I really love this aircraft but it uninstalled right now. I am afraid that as soon as the Leo Maddog comes out I will forget about this nice a/c. It will directly affect any future product purchases.

Edited by Irishcurse

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