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      Proper Problem Reporting for the TFDi Design 717   07/09/2017

      Folks, As the user count is increasing, it is becoming more of a task for us to stay on top of problem reports. We are also receiving an increasing amount of incomplete reports that we are unable to follow up on (which frustrates everyone, us included). On that note, we are going to be enforcing a stricter formal problem reporting system. There are a few main points that need to be addressed. ALL problem reports must be submitted via the Bugs and Suggestions system. Open discussion on the forums is fine, but our team simply cannot respond to every single comment (especially when the majority of doing so is asking for information the Bugs and Suggestions system already asks for). Incomplete reports will be ignored. This means reports like "my FPS is bad" will not be given weight. This isn't because we don't care. It is because a report like that does absolutely nothing for anyone - we can't fix it based on that. Please include EVERYTHING you can possibly think of regarding the problem and take as many steps as you can to isolate it. Prepar3D v4, despite what you have heard, can still be unstable. Yes, it is definitely possible to fly flights without issues. But it is still relatively new, as are most of the addons available for it. Please refrain from attacking us or other developers because of this. We have already had one scenario where a 717 CTD was resolved by an update to Prepar3D itself. This is likely not the only time that will be the case. You are still free to report the crashes, as it may help whoever the developers of the faulting code are solve the issue. Duplicate reports will be deleted/merged. For the sake of sanity for us trying to prioritize and evaluate issues, if we discover multiple reports of the same thing, we may merge/delete the duplicates. We strongly encourage you to search and see if your problem has been reported before. Thank you all in advance. This may seem overbearing, but this is the only way we are going to be able to stay on top and continue heading in the direction we, and the community, want.
gamesyns

Status Update (Version 1.0.9.15) and the Future

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This might be an easy fix for the external. Noticed it months ago but didn't say anything becasue of the V4 change up at the time and then forgot about it. But, if it's not too much see if there's anything that can be done for the main gear torsion links. The forward links compress but the aft well...here:

5a03a6688f4de_torsionlink.thumb.JPG.5f17751b6e1a3eb71ed4de177c829662.JPG

Thanks. 

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8 hours ago, Mistrfiksit said:

This might be an easy fix for the external. Noticed it months ago but didn't say anything becasue of the V4 change up at the time and then forgot about it. But, if it's not too much see if there's anything that can be done for the main gear torsion links. The forward links compress but the aft well...here:

5a03a6688f4de_torsionlink.thumb.JPG.5f17751b6e1a3eb71ed4de177c829662.JPG

Thanks. 

@HughesMDflyer4

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7 hours ago, funkyj4ever said:

+1 about engine start, there is a high n2 but no n1. I dont think this is right

n2 spools up first, n1 doesn't register until the 4.5 because the sensor does not activate on the real aircraft until this point. Please provide documentation if there is an issue, otherwise, we won't try to herd cats.

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On 11/11/2017 at 11:54 AM, gamesyns said:

n2 spools up first, n1 doesn't register until the 4.5 because the sensor does not activate on the real aircraft until this point. Please provide documentation if there is an issue, otherwise, we won't try to herd cats.

I understand Joshua's position on this as the developer...but I also agree with the other poster.  It's a concept common to all jets AFAIK that you would abort a start if you don't see SOME N1 rotation before opening the fuel cut-off.  There are a number of failure modes that would cause the low-pressure spool to freeze/seize...you would absolutely discontinue a start in any of those situations. IRL, I have 2 type ratings in corporate aircraft and have also had the opportunity to fly a number of airliner level-D sims.  In all of them I have been trained that you should see some positive indication of N1 rotation prior to 20% N2.

I spent a while looking for some reference for the 717, but the best I can find is this video of a Gulfstream G550 starting...it's powered by the BR700 series as well.  A bit hard to see, but you can see the "LP" digits rolling over before the pilot opens the fuel cut-off.  On the other hand...when I first got the 717 in FS, I was surprised at how slowly the the N2 and TGT ramps up compared to what I'm used to, but the video appears to confirm that TFDI has made the start indications very accurate for the most part.

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On 11/13/2017 at 2:31 AM, C525B said:

I understand Joshua's position on this as the developer...but I also agree with the other poster.  It's a concept common to all jets AFAIK that you would abort a start if you don't see SOME N1 rotation before opening the fuel cut-off.  There are a number of failure modes that would cause the low-pressure spool to freeze/seize...you would absolutely discontinue a start in any of those situations. IRL, I have 2 type ratings in corporate aircraft and have also had the opportunity to fly a number of airliner level-D sims.  In all of them I have been trained that you should see some positive indication of N1 rotation prior to 20% N2.

I spent a while looking for some reference for the 717, but the best I can find is this video of a Gulfstream G550 starting...it's powered by the BR700 series as well.  A bit hard to see, but you can see the "LP" digits rolling over before the pilot opens the fuel cut-off.  On the other hand...when I first got the 717 in FS, I was surprised at how slowly the the N2 and TGT ramps up compared to what I'm used to, but the video appears to confirm that TFDI has made the start indications very accurate for the most part.

I think he means you won't get any N1 indication between 0.0 and 4.5%. During start, N2 shows immediately while N1 sits at 0.0. After about 30-45 seconds N1 goes directly from 0.0 to 4.5. That'll be your indication to throw the fuel switch to FUEL ON. Then you get Fuel flow, EGT rise and everything else all the way until the engine settles. This is how the real 717 starts. The 30 second delay is for "bowed-rotor" protection to prevent damge to the high pressure turbine bearings in the hot section of the engine. As far as the sim model, I think they've mentioned they're working on a way to customize the engine start process so that it is proper. 

To answer your concern, yes, you wouldn't throw on fuel until you saw N1 4.5 pop up on the display. If it doesn't come up or it takes too long then the flight crew would verify from the ground crew that the fan is rotating or would stop the start process altogether. So right now the indication stays at 0.0 until you throw fuel on. Again, (from what I'm told) it's the simulator itself causing that. 

PM me if you have questions. 

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On 11/14/2017 at 1:44 PM, Mistrfiksit said:

I think he means you won't get any N1 indication between 0.0 and 4.5%. During start, N2 shows immediately while N1 sits at 0.0. After about 30-45 seconds N1 goes directly from 0.0 to 4.5. That'll be your indication to throw the fuel switch to FUEL ON. Then you get Fuel flow, EGT rise and everything else all the way until the engine settles. This is how the real 717 starts. The 30 second delay is for "bowed-rotor" protection to prevent damge to the high pressure turbine bearings in the hot section of the engine. As far as the sim model, I think they've mentioned they're working on a way to customize the engine start process so that it is proper. 

To answer your concern, yes, you wouldn't throw on fuel until you saw N1 4.5 pop up on the display. If it doesn't come up or it takes too long then the flight crew would verify from the ground crew that the fan is rotating or would stop the start process altogether. So right now the indication stays at 0.0 until you throw fuel on. Again, (from what I'm told) it's the simulator itself causing that.

Thanks for the reply.  That's helpful.  I wasn't familiar with "bowed rotor" issues...had to google that one.  Good to know, although it must not be a significant concern with the small turbines I'm used to since no one ever mentions it in that context.  (The biggest issue with corporate light jets and turboprops is having an adequate power source for the electric starter-generators, based on the conditions.  Sometimes there just isn't a GPU cart and you have to do a super hairy battery start at high density altitude.  I've had some real nail-biters, watching the ITT shoot up just shy of the start limit and hang out there).

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13 hours ago, C525B said:

Thanks for the reply.  That's helpful.  I wasn't familiar with "bowed rotor" issues...had to google that one.  Good to know, although it must not be a significant concern with the small turbines I'm used to since no one ever mentions it in that context.  (The biggest issue with corporate light jets and turboprops is having an adequate power source for the electric starter-generators, based on the conditions.  Sometimes there just isn't a GPU cart and you have to do a super hairy battery start at high density altitude.  I've had some real nail-biters, watching the ITT shoot up just shy of the start limit and hang out there).

Glad to help.  Never worked on corporate jets, but I know what you're meaning about battery starts at high altitude. 

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Hi guys,

Firstly, congratulations on an ever improving product.

A couple of minor ones which I've been holding off on.  They might not be bugs but more my lack of understanding so perhaps someone can put me straight!

1.  Transponder tuning knobs - are the co pilot's side knobs inverted, should they be the other way around as per a 737?

2.  Comms Radio - when you tune the decimal frequency in trips the main digit up and down when passing .000.  I know that was default FSX behaviour but I'm not sure if that's the case on the real thing?

Thanks in advance.  Only trying to help so apologies if I haven't made myself clear!

 

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Hello TFDi,

firstly thank you for latest updates with Trueglass features, it was marvelous, sadly after update, i can not fly this bird anymore. After Trueglass framerates during rainy weather were just 2 to 15 only, even after latest update. probably my PC not able to handle rendering for this bird anymore. compared to other payware product in P3D V4, it can reach up to ~60's fps in high setting. And I just wonder, with my PC I can have up to ~40's fps with X-Plane 11 even with super detail heavy requirement aircraft. And as far as I know, X-Plane 11 require higher PC spec than P3D V4. well perhaps, TFDi have solution for this matters, since I really this Aircraft.

 

regards,

Rudy

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I want to thank you for all the work this year and really like the improved product!

Still I am a bit disappointed to read that the Holding feature wont make it in the version 1.1. I expected this to be rather high on the priority list and think it is really essential to an aircraft. I am sure you are doing what you can and hope it wont take too long until it is available.

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17 hours ago, Rox said:

I want to thank you for all the work this year and really like the improved product!

Still I am a bit disappointed to read that the Holding feature wont make it in the version 1.1. I expected this to be rather high on the priority list and think it is really essential to an aircraft. I am sure you are doing what you can and hope it wont take too long until it is available.

It is something high on our priority list, but with so many updates already ready for the public, we felt like holding off the wall of fixes from the public was not the correct thing to do. We have a lot of tuning to do with it, so we weren't ready to hold the whole update to nail one specific item down.

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On 11/14/2017 at 4:44 PM, Mistrfiksit said:

I think he means you won't get any N1 indication between 0.0 and 4.5%. During start, N2 shows immediately while N1 sits at 0.0. After about 30-45 seconds N1 goes directly from 0.0 to 4.5. That'll be your indication to throw the fuel switch to FUEL ON. Then you get Fuel flow, EGT rise and everything else all the way until the engine settles. This is how the real 717 starts. The 30 second delay is for "bowed-rotor" protection to prevent damge to the high pressure turbine bearings in the hot section of the engine. As far as the sim model, I think they've mentioned they're working on a way to customize the engine start process so that it is proper. 

To answer your concern, yes, you wouldn't throw on fuel until you saw N1 4.5 pop up on the display. If it doesn't come up or it takes too long then the flight crew would verify from the ground crew that the fan is rotating or would stop the start process altogether. So right now the indication stays at 0.0 until you throw fuel on. Again, (from what I'm told) it's the simulator itself causing that. 

PM me if you have questions. 

This. Additionally, in the current model, you get an EGT rise well before fuel flow is shown, which of course is impossible as the engine can't light off until fuel is flowing.

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Hi there,

I'd really like to see wing flex as there is none at all and possibly having the blades faded when the engines are started. Because it just looks like the blades are spinning at walking pace but yet i'm on takeoff roll.

Cheers,

Josh.

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i made my 1st flight only to have it crash to desk top! wasted 1 hour of my time!dame!and all settings at minimum! with a decent rig=pc:i hope they stableize this plane soon?

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