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      Proper Problem Reporting for the TFDi Design 717   07/09/2017

      Folks, As the user count is increasing, it is becoming more of a task for us to stay on top of problem reports. We are also receiving an increasing amount of incomplete reports that we are unable to follow up on (which frustrates everyone, us included). On that note, we are going to be enforcing a stricter formal problem reporting system. There are a few main points that need to be addressed. ALL problem reports must be submitted via the Bugs and Suggestions system. Open discussion on the forums is fine, but our team simply cannot respond to every single comment (especially when the majority of doing so is asking for information the Bugs and Suggestions system already asks for). Incomplete reports will be ignored. This means reports like "my FPS is bad" will not be given weight. This isn't because we don't care. It is because a report like that does absolutely nothing for anyone - we can't fix it based on that. Please include EVERYTHING you can possibly think of regarding the problem and take as many steps as you can to isolate it. Prepar3D v4, despite what you have heard, can still be unstable. Yes, it is definitely possible to fly flights without issues. But it is still relatively new, as are most of the addons available for it. Please refrain from attacking us or other developers because of this. We have already had one scenario where a 717 CTD was resolved by an update to Prepar3D itself. This is likely not the only time that will be the case. You are still free to report the crashes, as it may help whoever the developers of the faulting code are solve the issue. Duplicate reports will be deleted/merged. For the sake of sanity for us trying to prioritize and evaluate issues, if we discover multiple reports of the same thing, we may merge/delete the duplicates. We strongly encourage you to search and see if your problem has been reported before. Thank you all in advance. This may seem overbearing, but this is the only way we are going to be able to stay on top and continue heading in the direction we, and the community, want.
HighFlyer525

Transition Altitude (Are incorrect and cannot be changed)

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Hi,

After I've created the route in the FMC, In this case EGPF > ENBR, departing from RW23 SID PTH4A, when I look at the PERF page, I can see the transition altitude is 7000 and it should be 6000 for this airport. I have updated all of my add-ons with Navigraph and they're all in agreement except the 717.

I've looked at what is listed as the transition height for EGPF in the 717's Navigraph access database and it's actually listed correctly as 6000 in there as well. 

So two points of interest:

A: It's not pulling through the correct transition altitudes for airports based on it's own AIRAC database

B: I can't edit it in the FMC either, if I type 6000 and hit LSK6 it does nothing at all. (I know this one could be by design and you haven't got round to it yet.)

If this is a genuine bug, shall I raise it in the bug page?

Thanks,

Mark. 

Edited by HighFlyer525

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7 hours ago, HighFlyer525 said:

Hi,

After I've created the route in the FMC, In this case EGPF > ENBR, departing from RW23 SID PTH4A, when I look at the PERF page, I can see the transition altitude is 7000 and it should be 6000 for this airport. I have updated all of my add-ons with Navigraph and they're all in agreement except the 717.

I've looked at what is listed as the transition height for EGPF in the 717's Navigraph access database and it's actually listed correctly as 6000 in there as well. 

So two points of interest:

A: It's not pulling through the correct transition altitudes for airports based on it's own AIRAC database

B: I can't edit it in the FMC either, if I type 6000 and hit LSK6 it does nothing at all. (I know this one could be by design and you haven't got round to it yet.)

If this is a genuine bug, shall I raise it in the bug page?

Thanks,

Mark. 

If you go to A/C STATUS page, does it show the correct version of the AIRAC?

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15 minutes ago, gamesyns said:

If you go to A/C STATUS page, does it show the correct version of the AIRAC?

Hi Joshua,

Yes it does, it shows as the latest. 07DEC-03JAN / NAV1713

Thanks,

Mark. 

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5 minutes ago, HighFlyer525 said:

Hi Joshua,

Yes it does, it shows as the latest. 07DEC-03JAN / NAV1713

Thanks,

Mark. 

I will take a look

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3 hours ago, HighFlyer525 said:

Hi Joshua,

Yes it does, it shows as the latest. 07DEC-03JAN / NAV1713

Thanks,

Mark. 

What other addons do you run?

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Hi Joshua,

I had another chat with Navigraph, about something different, and they informed me that they do not include transition altitudes as part of their data. Confusing........

If I look in an access database under C:\Program Files\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4\SimObjects\Airplanes\TFDi_Design_717\Data called navigationdata.mdb, it's in the Airports table under the TransitionAlt column. But perhaps this is a private column that you guys have created and when I run an AIRAC update, it's updating other columns and tables but not this one?

I mentioned this because it kind of makes my comment about the others being agreement a moot point, (Others are the charts themselves from Navigraph and PMDG).

I think the problems still there obviously, I'm assuming it's supposed to pull this column regardless, or I'm supposed to be able to change it in the FMC, but sorry the Navigraph data part might be a red herring!!

Cheers,

Mark.

 

Edited by HighFlyer525

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1 hour ago, HighFlyer525 said:

Hi Joshua,

I had another chat with Navigraph, about something different, and they informed me that they do not include transition altitudes as part of their data. Confusing........

If I look in an access database under C:\Program Files\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4\SimObjects\Airplanes\TFDi_Design_717\Data called navigationdata.mdb, it's in the Airports table under the TransitionAlt column. But perhaps this is a private column that you guys have created and when I run an AIRAC update, it's updating other columns and tables but not this one?

I mentioned this because it kind of makes my comment about the others being agreement a moot point, (Others are the charts themselves from Navigraph and PMDG).

I think the problems still there obviously, I'm assuming it's supposed to pull this column regardless, or I'm supposed to be able to change it in the FMC, but sorry the Navigraph data part might be a red herring!!

Cheers,

Mark.

 

I opened both the 737 and 747 in P3D using 1713 and both kept the transition altitude at 18000 until I changed it. Maybe @turbofandude might have a better insight?

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Hi Joshua,

Yes, It's not in the AIRAC data, that was my mistake, not supplied from Navigraph anyway. You have to set it manually in both of those and it was just a co-incidence that is was correct as soon as I loaded them.

The strange thing is though, that you have a TransitionAlt column in your Navigraph access database, as I mentioned above, perhaps this is your own doing through. Perhaps it's there to save any changes made to the transition altitude of an airport within the FMC.

But for some reason it doesn't read this column, and it won't let me edit it in the FMC either. 

Cheers,

Mark.

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Posted (edited)

Hi all,

Happy new year!!

Just thought I'd give this a bit of a bump.

Also, clean up the actual issue, as I've complicated things by trying to include too much information and my own guesses. Please disregard my AIRAC comments etc.

The actual problem is this, you can't amend either the transition level or transition altitude on the climb and descent pages respectively. They seem to have a standard figure in of 7000 (on both) but this can't be changed by simply enter a new figure and hitting the respective LSK. Effectively, the 717 is stuck with a default 7000 and I don't seem to be able to change it.

I've noticed the value changes for different airports, it's 5000 for EGLL, but I still can't change them.

Cheers,

Mark.

Edited by HighFlyer525

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Indeed, they are not editable currently. Nothing in our reference suggests that they are editable in the real aircraft either, despite how strange this may be.

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Hi, 

OK thanks for the confirmation, yup certainly is hard to find info on the 717. I know a couple of active commercial pilots here in the UK, but neither fly this airframe... :(

If I ever come across anything I'll let you know. My personal opinion is, at least for the Transition Level, it would have to be editable, it's hardly ever standard on the approach plates and always assigned by ATC, therefore you'd have thought an unknown like this would have to be configurable... Otherwise they might as well have omitted it from the system as it serves no purpose..... 

Thanks for the reply,

Cheers,

Mark.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, HighFlyer525 said:

My personal opinion is, at least for the Transition Level, it would have to be editable, it's hardly ever standard on the approach plates and always assigned by ATC, therefore you'd have thought an unknown like this would have to be configurable... Otherwise they might as well have omitted it from the system as it serves no purpose..... 

In some countries TL also depends of barometric pressure:

5a5381f323300_Screenshot-08_01.201817_36_26.png.b4bf34c29da26017778b5dd1823d8d51.png

I don't think that these values are editable. According to Boeing FMS guide:

5a5382c8dd4b0_Screenshot-08_01.201817_39_12.png.63652fd83fb6c41188af345a30de47f1.png

5a5382c9ac5c6_Screenshot-08_01.201817_39_38.png.d70852ca542e7ea274f490c08afba564.png

Also, there is no announcements anywhere when climbing below TL or past TA with the "wrong" baro pressure, which only confirms that these values in MCDU are just for information purposes.

Edited by dimkzr

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Posted (edited)

Thanks dimkzr,

Good information. In the actual aircraft, I believe that there should be an announcement when approaching the transition level/altitude. It's not modelled in the TFDi I don't think, but the idea behind it is to remind the pilot to change to STD or vice versa.

image.png.d7b469c12fffff80bdd906ca194a06ec.png 

This all makes sense and what I would expect, logically, a little like the 737 starts to flash away in yellow to remind you of the same. This is obviously the reason for having them in the FMC in the first place, but as you've pointed out, they're variable (transition level is anyway), so I'd assume not capable of being held in a database, except maybe for a placeholder or perhaps if they can put some logic in regarding the pressure bands as well then maybe, but either way it should be capable of correction otherwise there's the potential for misinformation to creep in and before you know it the pilots don't have a firm grasp of their actual altitude.

I wouldn't even currently say they're for information, because they're wrong. They're more of a distraction. (Fake news! ;)

I can't imagine a situation in this day and age where manufactures would purposely design a system where the outcome could so easily be that the pilots are not aware of their actual altitude because they haven't switch to STD or local at the correct time. It has air crash investigators written all over it lol. 

Edited by HighFlyer525

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Posted (edited)

According to FCOM, there shouldn't be any alerts. Baroset on PFD can be either white (normal operation) or boxed red (failure). No yellow numbers, no flashing - nothing. Because, if you cannot edit TA/TL values, these alerts could easily lead to distraction and misinformation. 

That's probably why on any plane database values for TA/TL in MCDU has the lowest priority behind manual entry, actual charts, and finally ATIS. If you don't have ATIS - read your charts. If you don't have charts - you can't fly. Simple :-)

P.S.
I believe these values are in MCDU not just for "informational" purposes, but also to give you a hint why your flightplan altitudes suddenly became a flight levels, or vice versa :-)

P.P.S.
If I remember correctly,  on A320 you won't receive any baro alerts if you leave default TA/TL values in MCDU.

Edited by dimkzr

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