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Posted (edited)

Hello ūüôā

Im a bit scared to make this topic.... i didnt have too much luck talking to devs (not here) in a way where its a conversation more than a reply from the dev that feels stepped on his toes when someone says anything. Im not here to do that. I like the 717 pretty much. At least since the view change ctd is gone. Im also aware that this is a beta and maybe things are changed. Maybe you even work on it atm. If so, just ignore it.

Let me say one thing right here at the beginning. Please, really, everyone who feels like he has to post a pic to prove something is better off saving his time ^^ It wont help in any way.

So let me start....i think you know already in what direction it will go now ^^

At the moment of writing the 717 is not really usable for me in v5. We all know about the vram "problem" here and how directX + win + p3d handles it isnt the best. Things improved in HF1 and while flying other planes like PMDG 747/8 i nearly forgot that there was a problem. Seems this plane brings it right back into discussion.

My setup is a i7700 and a RTX 2080 with 16gm ram. In v5 i DONT use Truesky to make this tests.

Ive tried now in 4 airports and everywhere it ends on the startup with a GPU hang because im running out of vram. Im not someone who runs with high settings. They are all around medium, besides 2k textures are used. I dont run with max shadows too, its on "low". Reflections on "middle" and no other plugin is used. No GSX, no AI traffic, nothing. Not even ActiveSky. The shots coming are with the "Fair weather" theme of P3D.

I dont have much time atm to make screens of many planes so i only post 3 comparison pics now, 3 different planes in the exact same situation. Im nearly sure this would continue like this if i would post the 3 other payware planes i have atm.

That pics are done at KORD, fair weather theme, no other plugins used.

TFDI 717, 6.3 GB / 6.6 GB load (i got a gpu hang when i opened the vehicle selection....any more light would have also caused one.)

941627006_unknown(4).thumb.png.f30118a6d5bf218ec76c084f5a56f252.png


Majestic Dash , 3.7 GB / 6.6 GB

269747401_unknown(3).thumb.png.2ada69d74a4b12fdd7d331afdebf7766.png

 

PMDG 747 , 3.8 GB / 6.6 GB

1412297896_unknown(2).thumb.png.79836bd5e75a0d7346c791735b51f2b6.png

 

That shows there is a nearly 3GB (!), 2.8 GB to be precise, difference between the 747 that comes with PBR and the TFDI 717. That is not ok for the fact that many things in the vc are way more blurry in the 717.

Ive tested this on 4 airports now and on everyone i reach the maximum easy. And this is without a single AI plane, no GSX, no real weather with more clouds and like said, no further addons.

This is not ok ^^ Im really sorry to say. I know that your model looks pretty good but also the one of the 747 looks pretty good, that can and should not be the excuse. Reallight alone is using 600MB. Thats a lot....

Just some mins before posting this ive talked to a few ppl with lower end GPUs (4 and 6GB) and they cannot even start the plane... It hangs already on scenery load. And i dont talk about the LatinVFR scenery that is insanely high on vram usage.

Are there any plans to improve this or is your view of the things that we should decrease our settings further to be able to fly it?

That was it already.

Like mentioned in the beginning. I dont want to be rude, nor do i want to step on your toes, nor is this a rant or anything in that way. I like the 717 but its not usable for me in v5. I will NOT decrease my settings to a point where all other planes would run with 100 fps and 2GB load, where everything looks like FSX when only a single one is using the double amount. Thats the reason i also dont fly FSLabs (not bec. the vram issues, we all know its not in v5 yet. I mean in v4 because it has ultra low fps and would require me to set everything to minimum. )

No hard feelings please, 
Have a good day.

Edited by Senchay
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With the 717 in beta, unfortunately the higher VRAM usage is a known bug for us. I've asked our Support Team and they have suggested you could try disabling TrueGlass or RealLight and see if this helps. 

To disable TG / RL, you can do one of two ways:

  • The most confident way is to¬†cut and paste TrueGlass.dll and RealLight.dll to another place such as your Desktop. That makes 100% sure that both modules are gone from your simulator system.
  • The quick way is to rename "TrueGlass.dll" to "TrueGlass.dll.bak" by adding a .bak extension to the full name. Same goes for RealLight to "RealLight.dll.bak".¬†

See if that helps and if not, go back to v4 for now. There are many new custom technologies we have in our aircraft to enhance realism so that is part of why this may take some time to port over to the new simulator (v5 is a product of its own, not just "v4 enhanced"). 

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Posted (edited)

I dont know what your settings are, but i do not come over 6,3GB incl. Active sky weather, GSX, a lot airports, ORBX and Ultimate Traffic Live. The 717 in V5 is frameratewise just on the heavy side compared to V4.5. 

Screenshot_95.jpg

Edited by Motormike

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Posted (edited)

this is exactly the kind of posts ive tried to minimize with 

"Let me say one thing right here at the beginning. Please, really, everyone who feels like he has to post a pic to prove something is better off saving his time ^^ It wont help in any way."

No hard feelings pls. But ive said everything why it wont help anything if others post pics to prove something.... I could go on now again but i wont.... just a hint: not every airport has the same amunt of vram usage. 

Besides that, the 6.3 you shpw has the sideeffect that everything you do in the moment you have 6.3 gives you a gpu hang on a RTX 2080. Go to settings menu, gpu hang, go to weather, gpu hang. etcetcetc. Have an overcast popping in, gpu hang.

Edited by Senchay

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Posted (edited)

@Senchay I can absolutely confirm your observations and for me, it's just not usable at this time. I'm running medium / moderate settings because I have an older CPU, Textures 2048 and "Dynamic Texture Streaming" enabled (!), resolution is 1080p, so no 4k-stuff for me. The settings are the same as in P3Dv4. PMDG planes for example are no problem, the NGXu for example (even though not compatible yet) is running better than before, same goes for the 747. 30-50 FPS, depending on the scenery, VRAM usage is around 5GB - very rarely, it goes above 6GB but I can't really remember to see those values, things like FlyTampa KLAS or SoCal excluded. I have an RTX 2070 with 8GB, so GPU-wise I'm using the current generation..

With the TFDi, I can't even get a flight properly loaded (VRAM shows at least 6.9GB / 7.1 GB after just loading into a common, usually nice performing add-on airport). It only works when I load in at the default scenario airport..

This is the scenario:

- Scenery: ORBX Global FTX, OpenLC EU, loading in at LIML (JetStream Designs)
- EA/TrueSky enabled, ActiveSky P3D, EnvShade (with high performance shader settings)
- First load:

Immediatly "VRAM exceeded" and even though I did not click on "lower settings", it borked my Prepar3D.cfg. No big deal since I know this can happen and I have backups of my .cfg's.

One little hint here for people who don't know, because I think it's important: If you accept this "lower settings" question when getting the "VRAM message" or even though you don't accept it (seemed to be like this for me), Prepar3D automatically and silently lowers settings you can't recover in any of the Simulators own menus. Yes, many of the most of the usual settings can be recovered by using the menu but there are things where you have to edit the Prepar3D.cfg manually to get rid of. For example, blurry gauges are caused by the setting "COCKPIT_HIGH_LOD=0" (nope, this is NOT the mip-mapping option and is not in the menus). Put it back to 1.
Same goes to "AIRCRAFT_REFLECTIONS", which is not the "Dynamic Reflections" setting you know from the menu..
There are a few more but my advise is, if you don't want to deal with all those variables and stuff, make backups of your Prepar3D.cfg (%AppData%\Roaming\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v5) everytime you change the sim settings, so you can easily recover the state before the VRAM exception.

I tried a little bit more but I never could start a flight. Sometimes just the textures won't pop in (either the plane's or the ground's) or 90%+ of the textures are black. On my last try, it seemed to be loaded completly but FPS were below 1 now, because VRAM was totally maxed out but no crash / message yet. Additionally, TrueSky gets automatically disabled for me all the time after you enable it, I guess otherwise VRAM exceeds again.

I didn't try the RealLight/TrueGlass disabling yet but will do just to check and confirm that this is really the issue.

But I won't fly it until the next update, because while I can live without TrueGlass, I don't really like to fly without RealLight.

To be clear, I don't blame TFDi here (thanks for bringing the 717 to v5 by the way <3), because I think Lockheed Martin has to fix many things here.. Sorry, but they just can't go and say "We apologize but this is how DX12 works". I know you can't compare P3D to other / modern games, but.. I have a current generation (upper mid-tier) GPU with VRAM enough for everything else, there has to be a way to work around this without getting a new GPU or lowering my settings even more. I know how to use the sliders and never max out anything or use settings my PC can't handle. And my personal preference is smoothness over visuals, so I'm careful don't going to high.

So.. TL;DR

---------------------------------------------------

Let's hope Lockheed Martin will further optimize P3D in the upcoming hotfixes to improve texture loading or compression. The least they need to do is to fix the mess-up of Prepar3D.cfg after a "VRAM limit" error / exception. This can be really annoying, because when you don't have menu-settings for certain variables and you don't know this, you will become desperate really quickly, I'll promise :D

I don't know if TFDi is able to find a way to minimize the problem on their side, if so - cool. But I think it's difficult at this time :)

Oh, and forgot to say: The 717 was one of the planes with the best performance in P3D v4, incredibly smooth and just fun to fly. So there has to be a way to get the same experience in v5 and I'm sure there is ;) For now, I guess we just have to be a little bit more patient. As far as I remember, it wasn't really different when P3D v4 released, this sim needed some updates as well to get nice.

Edited by roesti
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My findings are exactly the same RTX 2080 8 gig vram. I used lowest possible settings in TFDI and my VR profile tuned for low Vram and could get 10 minutes out of the 717. Hopefully this is nothing to do with realight or realglass as my airbus and 787 rely on this product . I hope TFDI can achieve something and appreciate there work not moaning either V5 is a new world but fraught with wow . Cannot believe I brought a top range card 5 months back thinking these problems were behind me. 

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first we had the VAS now its vram those that not have gtx1080ti or rtx2080ti can not run v5 not with all the scenery  and orbx regions or you need really turn down the sliders to minimum

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Disabling Trueglass helps  with Vram . Disabling both Trueglass and realight brings the plane in to a reasonable territory in line with the PMDG 747 about 500gig higher . As it stands I need to find at least another gig of vram to even consider using the aircraft . Already fine tuned my system for vram and VR use . Removing realight is not a consideration lights do help me see my instruments  . Hope you can find a way TFDI. Does not bode well for my 330 and 787 though . 

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18 hours ago, Motormike said:

I dont know what your settings are, but i do not come over 6,3GB incl. Active sky weather, GSX, a lot airports, ORBX and Ultimate Traffic Live. The 717 in V5 is frameratewise just on the heavy side compared to V4.5. 

And the Quality of your screenshot is dismal,(No offense to you) If you`re required to bring the sliders way down and drop AA settings so everything looks like Jason hacked it with a chainsaw then the point of having a simulator seems pointless.

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@roesti, a huge THANK YOU for the hint about the PREPAR3D.CFG file hidden changes when having a rendering problem.¬† I was going crazy after having the exact problem you mentioned. A lot of problems with buries in and out of the cockpit among others . I will delete my preapr3d.cfg and believe problems should be gone; sure I¬īll need to readjust the sliders, but this is not a problem....

 

Regarding the TFDI 717: I have a I9 9900, GTX1080TI and even with 11GB VRAM  (9.5 usable..dont asking me why????) I was not able to run this bird with the TRUE SKY, 2048 textures and high settings. I started it a t YSSY from Fly tampa and quickly faced the rendering problem message. Therefore, I decided to stop flying it and wait until TFDI sort out the problem (I'm sure they will). Please don't take me wrong, I really appreciate the work TFDI is doing and  always enjoyed to fly this aircraft (one of the TOP 3 for me), even using the "extra cockpit" view "trick" to avoid CTDs and remain in the cockpit until the end..... And fully understand that being a beta version, we should have some problems.

PS: please note that the aircraft is flyable for me with reduced settings, but get used to fly with the new TRUE SKY and high settings and no longer enjoying flying with out them....It looks like FS9 ūü§™.

 

cheers and take care

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This is really interesting; I will also take a look into the config changes. 

@plinio and everyone here -- I really appreciate all of our support so far and I really hope we can get to the bottom of this soon. VRAM usage has been high for not just our aircraft, but many other aircrafts as well (I've seen another long-haul airliner use up to 7 / 8 GB of my VRAM). This is due to a change to TrueSky clouds, the new water, DirectX 12, and many other changes in Prepar3D v5. I've even seen a spike in VRAM simply from the v5 loading splash screen itself! 

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Just a report: (using v. 5 HF1, i5-6600k, Nvidea GTX 1070, windows 10)

Removing the TrueGlass.dll and the RealLIght.dll from the gauges file, I was finally able to avoid a VRAM issue.  GPU # on the field 6.1/6.8 and dropped to 5.7/6.8 in the air.  I did reduce world radius and water values, which helped a little bit.  Everything worked fine with the aircraft as far as I could tell.  I flew in clear weather.  I normally fly with AS (beta), but I'm thinking that would be asking too much at this point.  

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Last update was May 29. Anything new on P3D v5? Is there a consensus that it works? Any large issues? Thx...

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Disabling RealLight.dll and TrueGlass.dll did the trick for me, previously I was crashing immediately upon load.  Shout out to those in this thread for helping me with that.

Now I'm peaking at/under 6 GB VRAM stable without any crashing or FPS issues whatsoever.  Running this on  gtx1070, ryzen 3900x hitting around 4.2 MHz, 32gb ram. Getting a solid 20-40 frames here with Chicago X scenery, near max settings @ 2k

 

2020-7-2_19-43-49-161.jpg

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Thx for the reply @notdansky. This is sounding positive. I've always wanted this and I'm definitely getting the MD-11 so why not start now lol. 

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On 8/1/2020 at 4:46 PM, iverne said:

Can’t anyone elaborate on why this is till in beta for v5?

In all honesty, it's because we don't believe the the experience is to the level required to be "production" (non-beta) at the moment. A lot of breaking changes occurred in the simulator and until we're able to either find a permanent, proper fix or at least identify and mitigate the issues, we want users coming into it to know it is not going to be the stable, polished experience you'll have in any other platform.

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41 minutes ago, turbofandude said:

In all honesty, it's because we don't believe the the experience is to the level required to be "production" (non-beta) at the moment. A lot of breaking changes occurred in the simulator and until we're able to either find a permanent, proper fix or at least identify and mitigate the issues, we want users coming into it to know it is not going to be the stable, polished experience you'll have in any other platform.

Completely fair.  And, I realize that all developers are different, but PMDG, FSLabs, QW, and etc. have nicely updated products.  Just seems odd that you aren't ready.  Even in v4 you had all kinds of problems (at least for me) with flickering and etc.  Just makes me wonder.

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21 hours ago, iverne said:

Completely fair.  And, I realize that all developers are different, but PMDG, FSLabs, QW, and etc. have nicely updated products.  Just seems odd that you aren't ready.  Even in v4 you had all kinds of problems (at least for me) with flickering and etc.  Just makes me wonder.

We're using different technology than most of the others (with the exception of those that use our RealLight and TrueGlass) and we have different hurdles to overcome due to this. We're finding that the biggest issue in V5 is the immense VRAM consumption (and the color of displays/surfaces, but I believe we've got at least semi-fix for that). We've pushed everything down as much as possible and we're forced to simply recommend a reduction in settings now, which nobody wants to hear (understandably). Until this either becomes accepted or we have an updated sim that doesn't push back as hard as V5 does currently, we're going to be in "beta".

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3 hours ago, turbofandude said:

We're using different technology than most of the others (with the exception of those that use our RealLight and TrueGlass) and we have different hurdles to overcome due to this. We're finding that the biggest issue in V5 is the immense VRAM consumption (and the color of displays/surfaces, but I believe we've got at least semi-fix for that). We've pushed everything down as much as possible and we're forced to simply recommend a reduction in settings now, which nobody wants to hear (understandably). Until this either becomes accepted or we have an updated sim that doesn't push back as hard as V5 does currently, we're going to be in "beta".

Yes, this statement is true for me.  As soon as I try and load the 717, my GPU crashes.

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If you disable real light and trueglass does that mean all the aircraft lighting will quit working? I tried doing this with the Milviz B350 and that made it non functional. Hopefully LM finds a way to correct the VRAM issues in the next update.

Edited by spencer.hoefer@gmail.com

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